E22 – Account Based Marketing With Mike Maynard
Mike Maynard, Managing Partner at Napier B2B, joins Gary to discuss account based marketing, how to get clients by throwing stones, and how to effectively get meetings and land new business from very small lists of prospects.
- Mike Maynard’s story (background), How he got into Marketing (01:28)
- When marketing campaigns don’t work (03:46)
- Things you want to focus on to start with the client (05:15)
- Account-based marketing (06:27)
- Recommended channels to use to get in front (09:15)
- How many people/companies were part of the targeting (12:22)
- Ways to get them to respond and do business (14:38)
- How to start your campaign today? (18:40)
- How do you get sales teams and marketing teams on the same page? (20:08)
- Key metrics for an account-based marketing campaign (22:00)
- Problems or mistakes people make when implementing account-based marketing campaigns (26:59)
To get in touch with Mike Maynard:
LinkedIn: Mike Maynard
00:00:53 Gary Ruplinger
Hello and welcome everybody to another episode of the Pipelineology Podcast. I’m your host, Gary Ruplinger, and today I am excited to be joined by Mike Maynard, the Managing director of Napier. Welcome to the show.
00:01:09 Mike Maynard
Thanks so much for having me on, Gary.
00:01:11 Gary Ruplinger
I am looking forward to that. Did I say Napier right? Did I get it right this time?
00:01:15 Mike Maynard
Yeah, that was perfect.
00:01:18 Gary Ruplinger
All right, excellent. So, for anybody who’s not familiar with you, could you just give a quick kind of background about you a little bit about your story and how you got here?
00:01:28 Mike Maynard
I got here, purely by accident I think is the honest truth. UM, so when I was at school, I always wanted to be a mathematician, which is a very sad goal, but that’s what I wanted to do right up until basically the last year at school when I got a chance to help build a lighting desk to control the theater lights at school and I enjoyed it so much I thought forget about that career plan. But I like, our plan what I’m going to do is I’m going to be an engineer, so I did an engineering degree, started doing electronics design and realized actually I probably wasn’t a very good engineer. I was quite good at the design bit I was terrible at the getting things into production bit. And so, I thought, well, what can I do? I want to talk about engineering, but I don’t actually want to do it. So, there was Technical Support, so I moved in Technical Support because that was the obvious thing to do. And after a while I was running the Technical Support team for a company across Europe, and then I realized that there wasn’t really anywhere to go unless I wanted to move to the states in terms of career. So, I thought, well, you know I need another carefully planned career move. Oh, marketing sounds fun. And so, I moved into marketing. I became the European marketing manager and then a few years after that I was at a training course actually and with residential training course, we had a few glasses of wine on the last night and someone said to me I said you should run your own business and I think. I think they’re actually quite nice, ’cause I think what they were saying was, God really wouldn’t want to be your boss, might he’d be a nightmare, but they said it very politely and I took it as you should run your own business and actually about three months later, the agency I was working with and the founders decided they wanted to retire and I got approached and I thought, well, you know, again, clearly part of my career plan, I’ll go run an agency having never worked an agency and day in my life and that’s how I got here. So, it was a kind of a random route through technical sales through engineering and ultimately into marketing.
00:03:28 Gary Ruplinger
Well, very cool. So, I know we had a kind of a list of topics that we were talking about before the call here. So, if you’re good with jumping into it, I’m good with it.
00:03:38 Mike Maynard
00:03:39 Gary Ruplinger
So, I think one of the topics we talked about here is when marketing campaigns don’t work, so.
00:03:46 Mike Maynard
Yeah, yeah. That’s always a tricky thing to ask. Someone who runs a marketing agency because we like to pretend, they all work, but they don’t. There’re a few reasons why they don’t work so, and one is really around poor planning. So, if you don’t understand your audience, you don’t know what you’re trying to achieve. You haven’t really thought it through. Then you know there’s a really good chance you’re going to do something that that actually isn’t gonna be effective. And another approach is I, I guess what I call ego marketing where people really talk to themselves. They talk about what they think they’d like to hear, rather than what their potential customers want to. Hear and that is a real classic way ’cause it always looks quite good. It feels quite good internally, but it never quite generates results. And then lastly and I think, this is sometimes the hardest one to spot is when people try and do too much because they’re working really hard. They’re trying hard, but they end up spreading themselves so thin. And what you hear is people talking about you know the challenge of breaking through the noise in marketing and if they’re talking about that, actually what they’re saying is, you know, we spread ourselves too thin and so therefore we’re not able to break through the noise.
00:04:59 Gary Ruplinger
So, I guess in the interest of not spreading ourselves too thin is there, are there certain areas where if you’re starting to work with the client, say you’re going to look and say here’s where we want to start? Or here’s the one or maybe two things you want to focus on to start with.
00:05:15 Mike Maynard
Yeah, and that that depends upon the client depends upon the campaign, but typically you know you start from what the client wants to achieve. So, what their goals are, and we have a process where we take four steps where we look at the current situation and the goals, we look at the audience and the messaging. And then we execute. Then we measure so you know that’s our four-step process and it’s really at that start. We look at what people are trying to achieve. And quite often in business to business, you find that actually what you want to achieve is to reach a fairly small number of customers, but they’re the big customers. The customers are going to make a difference to your business and so quite often a lot of accounts are. I’d really, you know, driven by you know some element of account-based marketing so targeting you know either specific group. Of accounts or even specific lists of accounts.
00:06:09 Gary Ruplinger
Account based marketing then what you said that that is essentially looking at just a very small list of accounts. Is this like where essentially, I have them listed by name? Is that kind of what you’re saying that, or I guess maybe could you explain the account-based marketing a little bit more?
00:06:27 Mike Maynard
Yeah, that’s a great question. Yeah, and you, you’re absolutely right. Like a lot of clients have them listed by name. But people do different approaches to account-based marketing and people have different numbers of accounts they’re targeting, so you know some clients might be targeting, you know, maybe 10 or 20 really key accounts are going to make a difference, and other clients might have hundreds or even 1000 accounts and the ones with 1000 might be focusing on you know particular characteristic the company. So certain sized companies, certain market, but where I find the you know, the impact is unbelievably powerful is where a where a client can come to us and say, do you know what these ten companies, if we won two of these ten companies, it would transform our business because then you can put all your effort into putting the money into attracting those companies that are going to transform the clients business whereas you know you could win 100 smaller accounts that really are kind of just going to be noise. So quite often, yeah, it does come down to a specific list of companies, and if you think about, you know some industries. Actually, that’s not very hard. You know, if you’re trying to sell into the automotive India. Street, there’s a pretty small list of automotive manufacturers, and actually the truth is you know there’s a relatively small list of people who supply them. I’m certainly in terms of electronics, for example, or in terms of other components like tires. So, if you’re trying to sell into industries, actually a lot of the time it’s not hard to generate a list. It sounds like, it’s really complicated, but a lot of the time our clients know exactly who they want to target.
00:08:03 Gary Ruplinger
It’s interesting you mentioned the automotive space down the hall from me. Like literally, if I throw rock, I could hit their window, but it’s the basically the agency that handles most of the American based manufacturers. So, for charge EM, Stellantis now or Chrysler but their agency is just down the hall from here. And yeah, that’s basically what they do is they run all their TV campaigns so and they just have an office here because that’s where the headquarters are for those American based companies so.
00:08:34 Mike Maynard
And they’re a great example of a company that, even if they don’t realize they’re doing it, that agency is probably running an account-based marketing campaign because they know who they want to attract, and so they’ve got to be really focused on a small number of customers that you know clearly can make a huge difference. Then, because you know all these automotive guys spend large amounts of money.
00:08:58 Gary Ruplinger
So, if you’re saying hey, this sounds like a cool idea when it comes to getting in front of these people, do you have any recommendations on how to do that? ’cause I’m guessing this probably isn’t your typical Facebook ads or Google Ad words type a, type of thing.
00:09:15 Mike Maynard
Well, the great thing is it can be Facebook ads. It can be Google ads it, LinkedIn for a lot of B-to-B companies is a big part of their account-based marketing strategies. You can be doing those familiar digital ads and focusing the budget just on particular customers. So yeah, you can use all those tactics, but equally you can do crazy things. You can send mailers that are something more than a postcard. I mean, we famously had a project where we were. We decided we wanted to pitch local to local clients or local potential clubs. And because we’re quite focused in terms of being, you know, really looking at technology companies, there weren’t very many.
So magically we had an ABM campaign because it was relatively easy to get the list of companies and so we went to pitch one of them. And I remember coming back and we’ve won the pitch and I was so delighted. And I walked through the door of the office. And I was about to do the big enough that we’ve won it. It’s great, and someone said, we know it wasn’t you. I was like what you mean, and we’d sent this Mailer, which was literally a stone in like a some hey laying in. Maybe it was a pebble from the beat and we just put it in there. We’ve mailed it to the client, and we said we’re only a stone’s throw away and the client who’d given us the business had actually posted on his blog whilst we were driving back. The reason he gave us the business because he felt the Mailer was so creative and obviously in that case the Mailer didn’t cost as much the postage it’s pretty expensive. Stones are not cheap to ship. But we’re able to do something really different. It was all hand down. It was, you know, very, very focused. And we could. We could know exactly who to send it to, so. The great thing about ABM is whilst it’s about focusing down, it’s not about restrictions and that’s what makes me so excited. About ABM is actually. It gives you more freedom. It gives you more opportunity to be creative. It gives you more opportunity to perhaps do things you couldn’t do to 10,000 potential customers, but you could do to 10. You know, we’re currently working with somebody who runs a bakery patisserie business and to send patisserie items to people. And it’s great fun, you know, and we can do something that I guarantee a lot of other people are not going to do because they’re targeting, you know, 500 potential clients and they just can’t spend the money getting handmade producers sent round. So, to me I think you know, ABM. Yes, it can be Facebook and you can target Facebook ads down to pretty much an individual. If you want to. But it can be so many other things and I think don’t be restricted by, you know a particular channel.
00:12:01 Gary Ruplinger
So, when you when you think about these, then like roughly how big is your list size for something like this? Or like when you did the stones throw campaign, ’cause that’s brilliant. I’m going to. I might have. To buy all that one but. What? How many people were part of the targeting for that? Or how many companies were you trying to meet with for that so?
00:12:22 Mike Maynard
So that’s a great example of really why there’s not an answer to the right number of companies to be on ABM list is from what I remember it was about 14 companies. And it was because we identified 14 companies within. I think it was a 20-mile range of the office. And it had nothing to do with us wanting 14 or wanting 20 or 10 or any other particular number. It was just that was a number of companies we identified, and so I think it’s all about, you know. Again, focusing on who you know would be your ideal customer and then really making sure the campaign that you delivered them is great and that campaign would have worked just. As well, at 30 or 50 clients, or potentially indeed at five, you know if that was all we could find because it was an opportunity to pitch people with, you know, something that really differentiated us, we’re local and pitch them with something really creative so.
In that case, you know that the number was small. We’ve run other ABM campaigns to bigger lists. I mean, typically we don’t run huge ABM campaigns, so we might run to maybe 50 companies. But equally where you’ve got, you know, large enterprises, and they might be able to put five or ten people to run an ABM. Campaign there they can realistically drive very large campaigns and they can. You know it’s not unusual to see a campaign where 1000 companies are targeted. And you know, I’ve seen campaigns where people have talked 1000 companies. They’ve had 1000 custom landing pages, one for each particular company. And of course, they’re not completely bespoke. They’ve built using a formula. You know you’ve got a company name, you got a logo, you’ve got a little bit of text, that’s. Specific to them, a little bit generic text and maybe a generic form, but you can build something that just feels was absolutely personalized without too much effort and you can build it today with you know real scale if you’ve got some resources to support that.
00:14:27 Gary Ruplinger
That’s very cool. So, when you’re when you’re putting these together in terms of maybe touchpoints, how many different ways are you trying to find these people, or get him to respond?
00:14:38 Mike Maynard
So that, that I think really gets to the crux of what ABM is all about. And I love that question and the simple answer is as many as possible because what we’re trying to do is reduce the spread. The breadth of the campaign focus it down, and really get deep interaction with those clients, so. I’m typically you’re looking for as many touchpoints as you can and so you know it does vary from company to company, so we had, you know, one ABM campaign where we were trying to help a client get into a particular potential customer. They tried through sales. They knew they knew the company was a one company ABM campaign and they were just desperate to get a meeting, mainly because the CEO had told the European Sales director he had to get a meeting so. Uh, you know he. He was under pressure and it’s hard to breakthrough that telephone wall sometime. So, we targeted one company and actually most of the people we targeted probably only had one touch, but we got a meeting probably luck more than you know, a brilliant campaign, whereas other campaigns we’ve been running. You know we’re looking not so much from the neighbor POV. When we’re looking to attract clients, it’s not how many touches we want with the client. It’s how many touches per month or per quarter that we’re getting, because with things like selling, you know, marketing service. Is that can have quite a long lead time to actually go from. You know, being known to the client. So, having the awareness all the way through to them actually decided to give you an opportunity you you’re not going to get a sales cycle to be complete in a month or even a quarter. You know quite often we have you know, a year or even two years. In that sales cycle, so it’s really hard to build an ABM campaign for two years or any campaign that runs for two years. So quite often what we’ll do is we’ll chop it down and we’ll say, right? We’ve got this list of clients. We’re looking to get this many touches within this quarter, so we’re looking through this activity. This activity and this activity and altogether that will, will achieve our goal.
00:16:46 Gary Ruplinger
So, you’re working with pretty long lead times then in terms of for these larger accounts in terms of how long it takes them to go from first touch to you know, signing that check in ready to and in doing business with you.
00:16:59 Mike Maynard
I absolutely I mean, you know some of our clients would say we’ve got very long lead times. We work with ecommerce clients who B to B ecommerce. And yes, they’ll do ABM campaigns, so they’ll focus on their key clients, but they’ll have very short sales cycles, and we also work with other clients that have very long sales cycles. Now our client, who I think is our record, talks about a 20-year sales cycle.
00:17:24 Gary Ruplinger
00:17:24 Mike Maynard
Uh, which is mind boggling and they have to do ABM. They actually make baggage handling systems for airports and they have to do ABM because actually there’s very few airports that are going to install like a uh, baggage system. That is one of their major deployments. And so, they’ve got a very small market. You know, maybe 1, maybe two airports a year would have this sort of system, so they’re very focused, but they’ve got to try and engage a client over 20 years and that again is tough. And again, the way you do it is not by trying to do a 20-year plan for marketing. You know, I can only imagine what you you’d be doing if you were planning from even ten years ago, but I mean 20 years ago, we’d be running campaigns on Myspace at the moment, which probably wouldn’t be effective.
00:18:14 Gary Ruplinger
Yeah, yeah, just trying to think back if that’s 2011. What all the big technologies would have been back then versus even just now. So, if somebody was trying to do this and said OK, this sounds like a good plan and my company needs this put in if they want to launch a campaign. What was something that would be something we’d recommend they could start with today in terms of?
00:18:40 Mike Maynard
So yeah, so this is a great question for this podcast because the first thing I do is I get marketing and sales to sit down together and that is something we’ve not really talked about ABM. But is one of the keys to success with ABM is to have the marketing and sales team working together. And it’s great because when you look at very broad campaigns. You know the marketing team might talk about whole number of AD. Impressions and a sales team are just going. Why do I care about AD impression you know it’s more good or does more mean it’s less focused or I don’t know, but when you talk about ABM? You talk about, Client companies, customer companies, you talk about the decision makers. In those companies, you talk about the buying committee. You talk about the things that salespeople, not only know and understand, but also care about so this is fantastic because you’ve got the sales team suddenly seeing value from marketing and seeing a really clear value, and you’ve got the marketing team able to use this knowledge from sales. So, with the two working together, that’s got to be the way to start a plan, because there you’re pulling all your knowledge together about these customers about the people who make the decisions and from that, you’ll be able to then build a marketing plan that really uses different tactics. And as I say you know it can be a wide range of different tactics.
00:20:02 Gary Ruplinger
So how do you get sales teams and marketing teams on the same page? ’cause I feel like a lot of times, that’s like herding cats.
00:20:08 Mike Maynard
Yeah, and well, I think you know I and personally having been on the sales side and been on the marketing side. I think a lot of it is down to marketing. Talking the language of sales because. I’m going to be honest. I see sales talking the language of the business the business cares about. You know how much revenue they get. Sales talk about revenue. You know, marketing talks about awareness and perception. It’s 2 remotes, so the first step is really to get a marketing team that’s able to talk to sales about business goals, and those tend to be sort of sales language conversations. It you know, it tends to be things like how many customers are you going to acquire? You know what are you going to sell to them? What’s the value of the customer? You know what price they’re going to buy? All of this kind of stuff. And I think if you get people talking together like that and you show marketing that sales actually understand the customer and you show sales that marketing cares about selling product rather than making you know something; they think looks nice. And suddenly you have this realization from two sides that actually they shouldn’t fight each other, which happens a lot in organizations, but they’re really, you know, both aligned and both heading towards the same goal. And to me, that’s you know. That’s really exciting, and when that happens, it really helps make those ABM campaigns more effective.
00:21:36 Gary Ruplinger
Very cool so. Is it you said is when you’re trying to measure success on this? Are you looking at number of responses generated? Are you looking at meetings booked or is its actual closed sales? Or what are some of the, I guess Key metrics or KPIs for something like an account-based marketing campaign that can talk today.
00:22:00 Mike Maynard
Yeah, so that’s a great question and I think it depends a lot on the situation. And sometimes sales are the right people to tell you what the correct metric is. Now if you’re running an E commerce business, probably sales value matters. I mean, that’s very measurable. You’ve got a very short sales cycle, you know. So, sales really matter, on the other hand, if you’ve got, you know a 5 or 10 or 20 years. Sales cycle measuring sales is completely the wrong thing to do. Because whatever you do now is not going to impact for another 20 years. So, there’s really important to understand what needs to be done, and that’s something that needs to be, I think, discussed between sales and marketing. You know, salespeople love meetings and so sales are always going to push towards the next meeting. The next meeting in the next meeting. And that’s fine, but also there can be influencers in the buying committee. Who you want to reach? So, I’m for example, you might want to reach a, you know, Chief Financial Officer. Because whatever you’re selling is very high value, and ultimately, it’s going to go to them for. Sign off the CFO is never going to take a meeting about the product as a technical product, but the CFO might ask very difficult questions. So, what you want to do is preempt that and then maybe a white paper. You’ve got that targets CFO, so it could be your goal from a you know one part of your ABM campaign is to get a certain number of CFO’s to download a white paper. And that could be a very simple guy. It’s something that perhaps is, is, you know, a little alien, maybe to the sales team. And the marketing team. Perhaps you’re more familiar with it, but equally you know another element might be, we’ve got this profile of decision makers and we know that we need to get in front of them and demonstrate our product, whatever it is, whether it’s software or physical product and so then you might want to measure sales meetings and demos. And to me I think it’s about. You know, understanding that buying committee, understanding how it works and way or strong where you are weak, and really you know building up those strengths, but also addressing the weaknesses and almost all suppliers. Have significant weaknesses within the buying committee. I mean, typically they the weaknesses, apply to more members of the buying committee than the strengths do, because probably you’ve got a salesperson talking to maybe 1-2 three members of the buying committee. So, to me it’s. It’s all about picking the right metrics and that’s really done through understanding. You know this process or the journey that the customer goes through to buy the product, and that’s ultimately what you get out of a really good discussion between marketing and sales.
00:24:45 Gary Ruplinger
So, when you’re doing this, do you find yourself targeting multiple people within the same company? I like in your CFO example. Are you also targeting maybe people that would influence the CFO that are more likely to take the meeting while simultaneously trying to influence the CFO to be favorable to the company once that happens?
00:25:05 Mike Maynard
Absolutely, and I think that’s a that’s a really good point. I mean, I’m trying to stay away from marketing job and having said that, marketers, you know talking jargon and don’t really talk the language of business. I mean, the term that marketers use onto the customer journey I mentioned, but also personas. And typically, you will have a number of people within any of your customers that can be characterized as a kind of stereotype and so you might have the decision maker. And if you’re selling to, you know it directors. I tied directors in general are fairly similar. They’re fairly similar people. You know what they want. You know what they care about. You know what they don’t want to hear, but you might also have the CFO. As you said, you might have the CEO and they require very different things so. The interests they have, the concerns they have are different than needs. They have a different, you know, frankly, the level of technical understanding and the ability to you know, perhaps understand the product you’re selling might be very different, so it’s all about understanding those different people and being able to create marketing content that really resonates with them. That works well, that they understand that they trust and ultimately helps them say yes to the to the sale, and that again, is a. You know this real benefit of focusing down. Is as you focus down on terms of number of customers, you can actually do some personalization, you you’ve got more time, more budget so you can personalize content that works for the CFO or CEO or the IT manager. Whichever one you know you want to target with each particular element of the campaign.
00:26:41 Gary Ruplinger
Cool, so maybe if we kind of circled back to the beginning then when we started out with what doesn’t work in in terms of this, what are some of the pitfalls or mistakes people make when trying to roll out one of these account-based marketing campaigns?
00:26:59 Mike Maynard
That’s why I mean, that’s the interesting question and we see we see different problems. So, you know one problem we see is people trying to roll out to a large number of companies straight away. And another problem we see is people running out a very small number but expecting great results and I think ultimately it comes down to really needing to plan a sequence of campaign so most people. If they’re sensible, will actually start out with maybe one or two accounts they’re targeting, and they’ll be a counseling, no? Well that the sales team knows well, they can get a lot of feedback from and really see if what they’re doing makes an impact ’cause you don’t always know what tactics going to be. The most effective, and so you don’t want to spend you know money targeting 1000 accounts when you could actually learn with one or two accounts. So again, focus down. But at the same time, don’t focus down and expect the whole world to change because it’s not going to or you’re going to be lucky. I mean, I mentioned 11 opportunity where we had one company and we were successful. It’s luck whether you’re successful because it a lot depends on timing. So, I would say build a program to do an initial. You know one or two target customer kind of learning process, then roll it out maybe to 10 and start making it a bit more commercial. But don’t necessarily expect results from those early stages that are measurable in terms of sales or in terms of changes to the business. But as you scale up then you can start looking for the results. So, you’re more looking for you know the signs things are working and it’s things like salespeople saying you know, do you know what since they mentioned they saw an ad or they you know they asked me a question which could he meant they’ve been to our website or maybe you’re tracking people on the website with marginal motion, so it’s those little signs that show that you’re doing the right thing, but you’re not necessarily going to get the end result straight away, so don’t be overambitious either. In terms of the number of companies, or if you’re going small and focused on terms of the results, I think I think those are the two. Things you’ve got to be prepared to experiment and so if you put pressure on yourself, either by the fact that anything you do is targeting 1000 accounts, therefore costing a lot of money or anything you do has to deliver a sale. You tend to be less willing to experiment, so you’re not getting any benefit from you know, really understanding what those targeted customers actually want and what kind of marketing works with those people?
00:29:35 Gary Ruplinger
I love it. Are there any questions I haven’t asked yet, Mike? How you’re just putting some gold out here, size, just not. Let’s keep going.
00:29:44 Mike Maynard
I mean, do you know what I think? I think the one. Thing I’d say is. A question people ask is Canadian would be applied to anything and to a large extent I think the answer is yes. And I would. Absolutely say don’t get hung up on the term. Don’t get hung up on this fact. You’ve got to do account-based marketing and it means this, or it means this, or it means this and you know if you want to go and find the definitions. There are organizations that will tell you there’s three types of ABM, and this is the only way to do it, and it just forget that. Think about focusing your marketing budget down onto the potential customers who are gonna make the biggest difference to your bill. This and if you can do that from my point of view, you’re doing ABM, which is great. But more importantly, you’re going to get better results and spreading that money far and wide and so to me, I’d say you know, don’t overthink it. Give it ago and just think about you know, how you can reach the people who are most likely to really transform your business. And you know, I’d really like people to give it a try.
00:30:48 Gary Ruplinger
Oh, very cool. Well, if somebody is looking to explore this further with you or get some more information about you, where should we send them?
00:30:56 Mike Maynard
I’m well if they want information and just generally, we’ve got a website so it’s napierb2b.com is our website. If people want to connect with me, I mean very, very happy to talk to people over LinkedIn. If you search from Mike Maynard and find the Mike Maynard Napier, you’ll find me, or you know, Indeed, if anybody wants to email with specific questions you know, I know your listeners will very thoughtfully people. They’ll come back with great questions, so they’re very welcome just to email me. My email address is email@example.com
00:31:31 Gary Ruplinger
All right, well, very generous of you to give us your email address I’m sure. Just that everybody be good with that please. But yeah, please do reach out to Mike if you have questions, we’ll put make sure we put your website and LinkedIn profile in the show notes. In case anybody does want to connect, and again they’ve got your email address. If they just want to message you directly. Mike, thanks so much for coming on the show I know I learned a lot. Thanks for sharing some of that information with us. I really like that stone’s throw campaign. Like I said, I might be borrowing that one. It’s pretty clever, but thanks. Thanks so much for coming on.
00:32:07 Mike Maynard
Thanks so much for all the questions, Gary, I’ve really enjoyed it.